| HRH Crown Prince Alexander’s
Interview Thursday 15 April, 1999 BBC WORLD TELEVISION
“HARDTALK” with Tim Sebastian Interviewer: My guest today has a unique perspective on the crisis in Kosovo. In 1945 the British Government declared a suite in London’s Claridges Hotel Yugoslav territory when the heir was born to the country’s royal family in exile. Although he has never taken the title of king he has never renounced his right to the throne of Yugoslavia. To be a countryless king he earlier said would be unrealistic. Today therefore he holds the title of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia and he is our guest on Hardtalk. Your Royal Highness, a very warm welcome to the programme. You are very critical of the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia: why? Prince Alexander: Because it hurts the people. The people are not the regime. The regime is the problem, ten years of a regime, which is really a continuation of the Communist past in another format using negative religion and negative nationalism for the sole purpose of remaining in power. Interviewer: So what was the West supposed to do, what was the international community supposed to do when people were being displaced en masse from their homes, when women and children were being executed, are they supposed to sit idly by and let this happen? Prince Alexander: Well the West quite simply over the years gave one lease of life after another to Milosevic and considered him the only exclusive person to negotiate with, and forgetting that actually the best way forward was to create democracy for once and all in Belgrade. Interviewer: But accepting that that was perhaps a mistake once you see Serb paramilitary units and the army go into action against the civilian population, and this was pointed out in the Security Council back in last September, that this was what we were doing, Kofi Anan talked about a reign of terror against the civilian population, when all arguments failed when all deadlines were ignored what was the international community supposed to do? Prince Alexander: Well they should never have allowed it to get that far. Interviewer: But when it did…… Then they had no alternative did they? Prince Alexander: Well I don’t think they realized what could have happened. I had been trying to advise the West, that is London, Washington and of course, Paris and the personalities involved. We have a lot of history that has been used – as I mentioned before - the negative side of nationalism and the negative side of religion – and in fact Milosevic came in with Kosovo in a speech some ten years ago. This launched him, but on the agenda, there was not anything to do with democracy. It was power and I think the danger lights should have been on then and how to deal with the post-Communist era in this new format. Now we have reached a sort of impasse as one might say. The guns are out from NATO and the guns are out from Mr Milosevic – this is very dangerous and this involves a delicate situation between as one might term in an old way East and West so really we are living in extremely dangerous times. Interviewer: Delicate situations apart I come back to the fact that there was a crying need to separate the Serb forces from the civilian population in Kosovo and that could only have been done by military means assuming that all you say is correct no it shouldn’t have happened but when it was happening and we saw the latest massacre in Racak before the fighting started – I mean forty-five bodies laid out on the ground – men, children, old men for instance – we could not allow that to go on could we? Prince Alexander: Yes….. Interviewer: In all conscience.. Prince Alexander: But if you think about it very clearly. It never should have happened if Mr Rugova was listened to in the beginning. He is a moderate. Today he is asking for full independence of Kosovo after being totally ignored by Milosevic and not even promoted by the West because nobody wanted to destabilize Dayton. So the net result is you have the disaster which is going on in Kosovo. The refugees pouring out, the refugees hiding in the hills, the bombs coming down, all people are suffering wondering what is going to happen next and democracy on hold for I don’t know how long in view of this and the consolidation of Milosevic’s regime. Interviewer: But there wasn’t ……….. Prince Alexander: So I am pointing my finger at the regime. I am pointing my finger at the West. By the way, it is not the only ethnic cleansing that took place. We must remember that Krajina took place, we must remember the Muslims also were ethnically cleansed and also the Croats so the whole area has been a total disaster and the West has been playing along with these dictators all this time and in the end the people have been suffering, be they Orthodox, Muslim or Roman Catholic. Interviewer: But you will admit that as far as Bosnia is concerned and what we are seeing in Kosovo the vast majority atrocities, this has been confirmed time and time again by the War Crimes Tribunal and other international organizations, were carried out by the Serbs weren’t they? Prince Alexander: Well I am not an inspector. All I can say is that I am against ethnic cleansing. I am against all atrocities, I am against all terrorists, what I am for and I must work for this now and for the future is a democratic base in Belgrade and for that matter democracy everywhere throughout the region. Real democracy none of this pseudo democracy and techniques that are used in creating political parties, closing down political parties and creating media and closing down media – enough of this, the people have had it. Interviewer: But you are honest, you don’t like the bombing, you don’t like Milosevic in power, what should happen? Prince Alexander: It is difficult now because everybody is in a corner. I would recommend the following. That we send a signal that is to all those who believe in democracy. That is the ‘we’ I mean, to Mr Milosevic that there are other people that live in Serbia and in Montenegro and for that matter in Kosovo, that believe in democracy. I think it’s time to hear these people and I’m talking mainly about Mr Dujkanovic, President of Montenegro, Mr Djindjic who’s the President of the Democratic Party, Mr Kostunica Serbian Democratic Party, the heads of the churches also the bishop from Kosovo, the Orthodox clergy, the Muslim clergy, the Roman Catholic clergy, because also there are Roman Catholics that live in Kosovo. I think we must enlarge this to send a clear signal to this dictator and for that matter to the people that the West means business and wants to listen to everybody’s voice. Interviewer: But weren’t there so many signals sent, there were so many warnings given, that NATO ……. the military reaction would be …it was available for everybody to hear, all the warnings, weren’t they? Prince Alexander: Yes, but remember he controlled his media. He has created a Ministry of the Interior, a seven-billion-dollar operation, when the people’s army only had a one-billion-dollar operation, now this was spying on the people, running militias, it was really what you might call anti-Serbian for the sole purpose of remaining in power. The net result is this disaster that we see today. Interviewer: But Your Royal Highness, with the greatest respect, you can’t pin everything on Milosevic, there are still plenty of people in the para-military units and the police force who are prepared to carry out his orders and prepared to put knives in the backs of the heads of innocent people. Prince Alexander: Why were the West visiting him in drones. They were coming down, every Foreign Secretary, every Foreign Minister, every general for that matter were coming to see Mr Milosevic, and Mr Milosevic was portraying himself over his state media which is run by him and controlled by him as a kind of an emperor sitting in my palace. Interviewer: As an ethnic Serb how ashamed are you of what the Serbs have done in Kosovo? Prince Alexander: I am against, as I said previously, I am against ethnic cleansing. I am against any form of violence. I am for democracy, human rights and respect of ethnic origin and all religions. Now it’s about time we get this going and it’s about time the West wake up that they should not exclude that they deal only with people who work against their own people. Interviewer: But does it make you ashamed, what has happened? Prince Alexander: I am ashamed if somebody is murdered in the street next to my house, I am ashamed of it, I really am. I mean wouldn’t you be ashamed? Let’s talk about Northern Ireland. Interviewer: I think lots of people would be ashamed. Prince Alexander: Absolutely. So let’s stop this nonsense and let’s get on with healing for a better future. A future where everybody respects each other. It’s a very small part of Europe. We will need to be good friends and good neighbours to open up a bigger market. To create jobs and to get on with life and prosperity. Interviewer: But what do you think your role is in the situation, you say you have been talking to people on all sides; nobody seems to be listening do they? Prince Alexander: No because everybody had their agenda. My agenda, and there are many others who did have the same agenda as I did, was to bring democracy and human rights to the region. Their agenda was on the side because they wanted to use the exclusivity of one person who happened to control the base. I will give you an example. Two winters ago there were demonstrations, which we all remember when the municipality elections were stolen by the state. Actually the regime had not prepared themselves very well and they lost the elections. Well they cancelled the elections because they controlled the judicial system, so they cancelled them. There were demonstrations, which lasted nearly two months, big demonstrations. Now I remember very well problems in Indonesia which were quite recent in time, when they had problems there the West demanded that the dictator go. In our case they actually wanted to use the dictator to the detriment of the population which was out on the streets – all our students were out on the streets – he (Milosevic) is manipulating the universities too, trying to change all the faculties. Everybody has gone into submission and remission. Then we had the sanctions and we lost two hundred thousand intellectuals over the last few years which have gone here, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, the United States to seek a better future. So there has been a brain drain and we would have used those for a better future. The whole thing is a total disaster. Interviewer: Let me come back again to the fact that mistakes were made that shouldn’t have been made along the way and we come back to dealing the present situation which has to be dealt with and in the view of nineteen NATO countries which normally can’t even agree on where to have luncheon in Brussels, you have this consensus of opinion that military action has to be taken. You know NATO leaders, you have talked to them in the past, some of them you count amongst your friends – you have not been able to influence them have you? Prince Alexander: No. But they have their agenda and I’m sorry it’s come to this. I have said I am against the bombing because it has hurt the people and it has given excuses for other things that have taken place. I am really concerned about the whole of the region. I am concerned about a spillover. I am concerned about the infrastructure of the country. I am concerned about everyone and that includes Albanians too. I have to be concerned for human life. It is my duty. Interviewer: Do you think the United Nations should be more involved here? Prince Alexander: Yes … Interviewer: NATO claims it’s merely carrying on in line with UN Security Council. Prince Alexander: Another good point. I don’t think the United Nations was consulted before the bombing took place and I think this has to be redressed because this brings into question the role of the United Nations. Yes, I think the United Nations is a vital factor. In fact Yugoslavia is a member of the United Nations. I would have preferred that Yugoslavia be a democracy as a member, but still the United Nations is a vital thing in the future. Interviewer: It didn’t ………. It was set up, after all, the United Nations to stop genocide, it’s fair to stop genocide in Bosnia, it’s fair to stop it in Rwanda, it’s fair again despite its Security Council resolutions to stop genocide in Kosovo so it’s clearly not living up to the job. NATO says it doesn’t need specific authorization from the United Nations to bomb, it says it’s supporting Security Council’s declared aim to prevent………….. Prince Alexander: I remember NATO as being a defensive organization. Not an offensive organization and in view of this situation which is rather delicate, of Russia and the West. I think that they should have really thought about it again. First of all it’s hurting the people and that’s regrettable. There was a terrible disaster with a train. Yes it may not be the amount of deaths as one might put it with the Albanians taking place, but I would say one death is one too many. And I think really we have to re-think about policy in the World today. Yes I take your point about Rwanda which was absolutely appalling and there have been others too over the century – we’ve had the most violent century if you think about it. Interviewer: So good men can’t look away when evil is being committed, that’s what it comes down to. Prince Alexander: It is a tragedy. Well democracies should work better in bringing democracy to lands that have been captive as one might say. If you go back in time - it is an easy thing to go back in time – but if you look at it we have had one disaster after another. We had a Second World War, a Civil War then we had five decades of communism and this continuation. You see our leaders were all members of the League of Communists, who are in charge today. Who were considered very digestible, because they were not members really of the Soviet Empire and there were the satellites on the side – it (Yugoslavia) was a buffer state to the expansion of the Soviet Union. And then ………. Interviewer: They ousted your family… Prince Alexander: Absolutely. They ousted my family, they abolished my citizenship when I was two years old. I do not know what I did to the state at two years old. Anyhow, ……….. Interviewer: You were a symbol of something ……….. Prince Alexander: I was a symbol of something acceptable. Interviewer: Unacceptable to them. Prince Alexander: Acceptable to the people but unacceptable to a few that were in power. The point is this, that Yugoslavia was the buffer state and it was neither on one side nor the other and the economy was bad so they allowed the workers to go abroad as gastarbeiters as they put it, in the Germany’s and Switzerland’s….. Interviewer: Guest workers… Prince Alexander: Yes, exactly. Now they brought back money and it buoyed the system and it opened up the door a bit and industry was running alright except it was self management so we were considered very digestible, but not at all as soon as Moscow collapsed in 1989 and the wall in Berlin. Our leaders had an agenda… Interviewer: You’re very bitter about this aren’t you still? Prince Alexander: I’m bitter because….. Interviewer: This goes back a long way… Prince Alexander: Well I have seen so many people hurt. Yes there was a peace for a long time, there was the horror of the Second World War and a Civil War then and then nothing happening. Democracy was dead. The people were relatively free compared to other communist countries, but democracy was put on hold. I would venture to say that if there had been democratic reforms throughout the former Yugoslavia it would have been all right. Then we had the horrors that started the premature recognition of the states within Yugoslavia. Interviewer: But unfortunately we have to deal with the World as it is and you are asking why shouldn’t the world be democratic and why shouldn’t everybody be nice to each other but …… that’s not the World, is it? Prince Alexander: It is an extraordinary thing how the European Union has mishandled this whole thing in a big way. I would have thought that the European Union would have been more capable in implementing help and bringing democracy to my homeland. I am talking about the whole of the former Yugoslavia, which was in dear need of something. Interviewer: Your Royal Highness, you’ve been back to Yugoslavia, you’ve been back several times, was that an emotional experience for you? Prince Alexander: Very. Very emotional. The tragedy is that when I went back the problems had started and I …. Interviewer: You went back in 1991. Prince Alexander: 1991 was the first time. I had received many people from all parts of the former Yugoslavia. My first contact started interestingly enough with Slovenia. Slovenia today is an associate member of the European Union, it’s moving ahead. Yes, it has its problems like most countries do, it has one ethnic group, yes it has peace, but it’s moving ahead. But, I have met also many people. There are many problems in Croatia. I do not think the democratic process has gone forward as well as could be. Interviewer: But do you think you could be king one day? Do you think you could be a constitutional monarch? Prince Alexander: I do not think we have what we call it the old former Yugoslavia. I think that what we are looking at today is definitely Serbia and Montenegro, and possibly things opening up a little further if there was a real democratic process in government. Interviewer: But you….. Prince Alexander: My role is the meeting point…. Interviewer: But don’t you have a dream of living in the White Palace in Belgrade. Prince Alexander: I think the Palace at the moment is something you have to put really on the side. There is so much misery. Horrors going on in Kosovo, Horrors going on in Serbia. People wondering where they are going to be hit next. Poverty and even before this bombing took place sixty- percent unemployment. People wondering where they were going to get their next pay, pensions not being paid – a total disaster. Interviewer: But do you cherish the dream? Do you cherish this as a dream of going back as king. Prince Alexander: Well my wife ….. well it is a process which could be very positive in a sense that it happened in Spain and the king brought democracy. Yes there are differences. I agree there are differences, but it did bring good. It did bring unity and continuity and an umbrella for the democratic process to move forward. Now my wife and I love our country very much and so do our children. I think we have had great luck to have been brought up in the West, educated in the West, to understand the history of the region. So we do have one thing - we know what it is to live under democracy. Why can’t we share this with our people and allow the democrats to come out to move ahead and to assist in this and to start a bridge to the West? Interviewer: Your experience in democracy as we said at the beginning began in Claridge’s didn’t it, suite what was it 212? Prince Alexander: 212. Interviewer: And thanks to the agreement of the British Government your father King Peter II was here in exile wasn’t he? Prince Alexander: That is correct. His government was here when the Germans had invaded Yugoslavia. He moved first to Egypt then eventually to London. Interviewer: Extraordinary that they were able to declare this suite in the hotel Yugoslav territory. Prince Alexander: Well I think it was a rather touching process as my father did ask the Prime Minster then, Sir Winston Churchill, and it was agreed that I was born in Yugoslav territory. What is rather interesting apart from the government representatives there were also Tito representatives that signed a piece of paper that I actually existed and two years later they removed it that I existed. Not withstanding that earth from Yugoslavia itself …… Interviewer: ……. had been sprinkled under the bed where you were born. Prince Alexander: Yes. I mean very touching, very traditional. Interviewer: How much does that mean to you? Prince Alexander: A lot. I think the country is a beautiful country. The whole region is beautiful. The whole region has been visited by numerous tourists. I think we can open up the gates again once we have a good process of democracy. You know it is a pretty country. I have traveled not that much through it, but what I have seen is wonderful. The people are wonderful and the people open their arms to everyone. It is what is in command which is really evil. It really is evil. Interviewer: People say they get the governors they deserve, you don’t think so? Prince Alexander: Well, those are manipulations. Remember you have the continuity from the past. The inheritance from the past. You do not have a clean break. There have been clean breaks that have taken place in neighbouring countries and not too distant countries that were once satellite countries of the former Soviet Union. In our case there has been the continuity. Interviewer: And the continuity you as great great grandson of Queen Victoria. You are also a godson of the Queen, what burden, what burden, what responsibility do you think that places on you? I know you see your role as speaking out as far as possible, but beyond that, the royal heritage that you possess, what responsibility does that place upon you? Prince Alexander: It is a solemn heritage to respect everyone and we go out of our way to respect everyone and to be very friendly with everyone. We are very lucky to have friends with all religions – Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish –. I think we live in a very small world if you think about it and it is a solemn duty to get on with life. I have had to earn my living and so has my wife and we have learned what it is to pay a mortgage, an electricity bill, we are people, we are not really as royal as you think! We are normal people. Yes we have inherited a name but we really have to behave as good citizens of this World. Interviewer: And you move in some pretty exalted circles, let’s face it. Prince Alexander: Well I think it is nice to have good friends. It is very important to have good friends and let us face it, connections are always very important. Interviewer: A lot of these friends of course aren’t going to
share your views on the conflict at the moment are they? Many in
this country would definitely not support your criticism of the bombing
for instance, would they?
Interviewer: And people have carried out unspeakable atrocities, we can’t get away from that. Prince Alexander: Yes, I would say that there are no angels in the Balkans, these regimes have allowed some pretty atrocious elements to come to the surface and I think that is wrong. Interviewer: What would you do about them if you went back to the country? Prince Alexander: Well we would have to have a proper judicial system. I mean we haven’t even got a judicial system. It is a command system, an example were the demonstrations two winters ago. One moment they cancelled elections the next moment the judicial system makes them illegal then legal – I mean what is this?! I mean it’s ridiculous, we have to really root and seed the roots of democracy, we have to make the foundations there. Interviewer: You support the aggressive pursuit of suspected war criminals, wherever they are? Prince Alexander: I think this is a judicial process that will have to take place and there will have to be independent people looking at it…. Interviewer: The War Crimes Tribunal to me….. Prince Alexander: I would see a lot of politics involved there…. Interviewer: But it’s all we’ve got isn’t it so we’ve got to work with it. Prince Alexander: I think if we go back to the one after the Second World War there was a base. Now I think a judicial process should take place, but more of a neutral process and certainly if we would bring democracy to Yugoslavia then I think we have gone a long way to bringing to justice those who have committed crimes against humanity. Interviewer: Forgive me for saying that but that sounds a little bit ambivalent on the subject, I mean if people ……. Prince Alexander: I am not the Government. Interviewer: No, but if people are indited by the War Crimes Tribunal they should be delivered to The Hague shouldn’t they. That was part of the Dayton Agreement which people have ignored left, right and centre. Prince Alexander: Yes but if you put in an extradition, and I’m not a lawyer, to a country for a criminal then there are procedures that take place. Interviewer: If you sign an agreement, an internationally binding agreement saying you will abide by what the International War Crimes Tribunal says you’re supposed to do. Prince Alexander: I would hope that Yugoslavia becomes part of the brotherhood of nations and abides by international law. We haven’t reached those dizzy heights yet. Interviewer: How proud are you of your country? Prince Alexander: I am proud of my history. We have an incredible history. If you think about it, the cradle of our civilization goes back to 1389 at the Battle of Kosovo, it was a battle that one lost. Of course, people do not really celebrate lost battles, but this was the foundation of Serbian heritage. Now, the Serbs have had good times and bad times. They have been good leaders and bad leaders. I think there was a particularly good period under my great grandfather, King Peter I. Where we did have a good democratic base that came into being and then there was a concerted effort after the First World War and the Balkan Wars to bring democracy to Yugoslavia. My grandfather named Yugoslavia in 1929: jug means south, south Slavs. It worked a little bit but then again the rise of Fascism took place. The world Depression and then the Second World War, a terrible conflict and the Civil War disaster. Interviewer: When one thinks of Yugoslavia these days, and this is going to take some time to erase, one thinks of blood, one thinks of atrocity. It’s going to take a long time to erase that isn’t it? Prince Alexander: It will take a long time to heal the wounds and I hope that they heal, there is resilience. But the two empires left a bit too late in history. I am namely talking about the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, they left very late. If they had left earlier on, I think we would have been one step ahead, and I do hope that we can start the mending process. Interviewer: Your Royal Highness, Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, thank you very much for being with us on the programme. Prince Alexander: Thank you. |
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